pesticides in ferments?

[ColinAttard]

Hi, according to Donna Gates, after 9 days of fermentation, all pesticides have been processed by the bacteria and transformed into other substances that are no longer harmful to us.

[Tim Hall]

I know that bacteria and fungi have been studied and used for remediation of toxic materials, and it may very well be true that fermentation renders pesticides harmless. However I wouldn't trust this entirely, unless you know who's studying (and how they're determining the toxicity of) such metabolites. Science has a habit examining things in an extremely rarefied context.

This rarefied context is prerequisite for the scientific method. Such studies obviously have value within the discrete context for which they are conducted, but are often misinterpreted and sometimes overinterpreted outside of that context. And a basic fact of scientific study is this: you won't find results for that which you are not explicitly testing for. There are probably more things we don't know and test for, regarding pesticides, than what we do test for.

Even if pesticides are theoretically rendered harmless (to us) after nine days of fermentation, this doesn't necessarily speak to their effects on the fermentation.

As for Christopher's question: I buy organic/chemical-free when it's available or I can afford it. But for me it's not so much a personal health issue, or concern for fermentation dynamics in choosing organic. I'm more concerned with the UN-sustainability of pesticide use in a broader context.

But this is coming from a beekeeper, who loves his bees very much.

[Tim Hall]

And for the record, Donna Gates sells prescriptive diets and her own brand of bacteria. As far as I'm concerned she's not an authority on the safety of pesticides...especially if I haven't read through the sources she's citing.

[Nerium]

I am a horticulturist and I have experience with using both "natural" and "synthetic" pesticides. All pesticides are different: made up of different chemicals, have different rates of persistance and have different levels of toxicity to us. I don't think you can just assume that the bacteria will render any pesticide harmless, without having more information about the product used. It's important to know its chemical make-up, method of application (i.e. spraying versus a drench), and persistance on/in the plant tissue. Also, if the produce has been treated with a fungicide, this could interfere with your fermentation.

Here are two examples of pesticides that I am familiar with and I've included the links to their labels so you can examine the information yourself.

Botanigard is natural and made up of fungal spores that grow on the bodies of the targeted insects, killing them. The re-entry time is 4 hours and the pre-harvest interval is (0) days, meaning you can harvest the produce the same day that you spray. Since it is sprayed on the plant, it can easily be washed off.

http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/bot ... -ca-en.pdf

Intercept is made up of a chemical called imidacloprid and it is a systemic pesticide, meaning the plant takes up the chemical in it's tissue and it can't simply be washed off. It has a re-entry time of 24 hours and the pre-harvest interval is anywhere from 3 to 7 days, depending on the crop. I'm not knocking it, as it can be very effective at controlling pest populations that threaten a crop, but just be aware.

http://64.85.46.135/UPLOADS/PDFS/interc ... %20eng.pdf

My suggestion would be to buy a product that is pre-packaged so that you can contact the company and ask what they have used to treat the product. Or, buy from a local farmer who you can talk to personally about what they've used. Or...if possible, grow your own.

As an aside, I received some plants from a coworker this summer and she told me how to procedd with fermenting them. She said specifically, "make sure the peppers are really dry before you do it, or you'll end up with mold". So what do I do? I wash them, chop them, add the salt and allow the whole thing to ferment thinking, "why would a little extra water hurt?" I ended up with mold. Damn.

I hope this helps!

[Nerium]

Another aside, natural pesticides aren't always harmless. I know you love your bees, and Botanigard, although natural, is very toxic to bees.

[Tim Hall]

Nerium, I'm aware that the word 'natural' on a label does not equal 'safe.'

For your own information imidacloprid is also DEADLY to bees and other pollinators. EPA testing requirements are a joke. Any "systemic" pesticide (if not all pesticides, sysnthetic or "natural") are ultimately unsustainable. And yes, the big problem with the systemics is they don't wash off.

If you use imidacloprid or the likes you are directly contributing to pollinator decline.

[Nerium]

Tim, I figured that you would know all about what I was talking about because you seem quite knowledgeable on the subject. I was breaking it down for the others who will be reading the thread and may not necessarily know much about the products being used on our produce. It would be far more helpful to conscientious consumers if produce was labelled with exactly what it's been treated with, wouldn't it?!

I use only natural products with the least toxicity and environmental persistence that will do the job. Even still, I suit up as though I was using something much more toxic, just in case...and I still worry about how it's effecting non-target insects, like bees.

This past summer, I purchased a CSA share from a local, organic farmer. The produce I used for fermenting often had insect holes and damage and I was thoroughly convinced that I would find little worms or something similar in my ferments, but it never happened (thankfully!). I suppose it's all about finding the balance between having produce that is grown with as little pesticides as possible and having produce that isn't rendered inedible due to pest damage (which was the case with a batch of brussel sprouts I received--just couldn't bring myself to eat it).

[Tim Hall]

'Balance' is definitely something we should consider deeply with our food and agriculture.

Here's something to think about in terms of balance, pesticides and fermentation that puts all this into a little broader context:

Fermentation happens everywhere, and it's a necessary part of life, whether on a discrete metabolic level, or within a complex ecosystem. One of the most important places fermentation happens is in the SOIL. If fermentation doesn't happen here, we couldn't grow our plants to begin with.

So who's testing the effects of pesticide's on fermentation dynamics within the soil? Again I suspect there's far more about pesticides we're not testing for than what we are.

[Tim Hall]

Nerium, this all reminds me of a conversation I had with a beekeeper about the possible role of fermentation and 'probiotics' within the hive. I think it'd be a great research topic to identify the role(s) of fermentation in horticulture, and look for ways to keep/put this into balance.

[Nerium]

Yeah, you've got me really thinking about all of this!

I innoculate my growing medium with a soil bacteria (Streptomyces griseoviridis) that protects the plant roots from fungal and bacteria diseases. I've used another bacteria (Bacillus thuringiensis) to kill cabbage moth larvae.

That reminds me...I once had a bunch of seedlings collapse from damping-off. I was desperate to find something natural, and the recipe was actually crushed garlic that you allowed to ferment in water for a few days. It smelled vile, but worked!

I was wondering if there are any fermented products (sauerkraut, kombucha, etc.) that could be used in a similar manner?

I might just have to experiment and report back...but it will probably take some time.

What about you, did you experiment with probiotics within the hive? I don't know much about this, but heard there was a fungus that is harming bee populations--can this be a potential way to protect them?