bacteria all over? dont call me crazy

[bravebird]

hey folks,
so i've been fermenting for a while now and i'm starting to doubt that the bacteria involved in fermenting die after heating. i've fermenting all types of stuff and they've all been exposed to most of my pots, pans, and dishes. when i cook something that hasnt been fermented and store it in a container that i've used to ferment items in (or at least use for storing fermented goods), i notice that the non-fermented foods also come "alive". after cooking the nonfermented foods and storing them in containers, i see bubbles, i hear the sounds i hear typical of ferments....does this mean that the bacteria are hanging around in pots, pans, and containers after being exposed to fermented foods? i unfortunately use antibacterial soap, so i thought that would get rid of them, but something is telling me some of the little guys are still hanging around. it's as if i've seasoned my whole house with bacteria now...i know it may sound like nonsense, but it's so true.
anyone else have this happening to them?

[Tim Hall]

Some bacteria (notably Clostridium botulinum) are highly heat tolerant. But most of the good bacteria tend to not take heat very well. So yes, in essence you've 'seasoned' your whole house with bacteria.

When you have fermentations going on, that bacteria can get everywhere despite the 'antibacterial' soap. Bacteria is in the air, on your skin, in your breath, on your pots, pans, utensils - on the surface of pretty much everything. All it takes is a little bit of 'contamination' to eventually turn into a lot of fermentation.

Unless you're operating your kitchen like a laboratory clean room, and sterilizing every possible thing (including the air), bacteria is going to get into your food.

And personally I'd stop using that antibacterial soap. First of all it's a marketing gimmick. (The sheer chemical action of most ordinary soaps alone is perfectly good for eliminating bacteria under normal conditions...as long as you aren't planning to give someone a heart transplant.) Also it's indiscriminately using an antibiotic agent that may help breed super bugs.

[bravebird]

yeah i want to stop using the antibacterial soap, but i need a good dish washing soap yo use...recommend any? and it's tough because living with non-fermenters, they can't stand the idea of using non-antibacterial soap.
i must admit though that once in a while i might get black mold on my fermenting jars and i'd prefer to definitely use antibacterial liquid on those. i also always sterilize my jars b4 fermenting

[Tim Hall]

As of 3 days ago Proctor & Gamble has announced they are phasing out at least one of their antibacterial agents used in household products and soaps...based on a study published last month that showed the agent was indeed breeding antibiotic resistant bacteria. There are other studies that indicate those chemicals may be directly harmful to humans in other ways (such as endocrine/hormone issues). I'm pretty sure there are other studies that have indicated "antimicrobial" soaps are no more effective than ordinary soap. So might just let your roomies know about that.

My understanding is good old fashioned (and cheap) distilled vinegar, diluted with water, is an excellent antimicrobial cleanser. Because it involves a chemical action, and not a 'pharmacological' action, microbes cannot become resistant to it.

Also if you're using something that is specifically anti-bacterial, that doesn't mean it will work on mold and fungus. Again my understanding is vinegar works well for that too. But ordinary soap usually keeps things clean enough.

[bravebird]

thanks for the heads up!
i might also add that i notice the bacteria even after sprouting beans. when i cook sprouted beans they ALWAYS give the same result, even when no fermented food is added to the pot. strange. i guess my food is now "alive"!!!!

[Gutted]

Some bacteria (notably Clostridium botulinum) are highly heat tolerant. But most of the good bacteria tend to not take heat very well. So yes, in essence you've 'seasoned' your whole house with bacteria.

When you have fermentations going on, that bacteria can get everywhere despite the 'antibacterial' soap. Bacteria is in the air, on your skin, in your breath, on your pots, pans, utensils - on the surface of pretty much everything. All it takes is a little bit of 'contamination' to eventually turn into a lot of fermentation.

Unless you're operating your kitchen like a laboratory clean room, and sterilizing every possible thing (including the air), bacteria is going to get into your food.

And personally I'd stop using that antibacterial soap. First of all it's a marketing gimmick. (The sheer chemical action of most ordinary soaps alone is perfectly good for eliminating bacteria under normal conditions...as long as you aren't planning to give someone a heart transplant.) Also it's indiscriminately using an antibiotic agent that may help breed super bugs.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you say! Anti bacterial soaps and liquids are causing problems and solving nothing. They are only a marketing gimmick for people who know no better and are easily persuaded.

Peoples bodies need exposure to bacteria and possibly other things that I wouldn't want in my body, to teach their immune systems how to behave correctly. Babies put things into their mouths all the time to do just that, sample bacteria and create anti bodies, teaching their immune systems how to react. Science is beginning to realise that being so clean as people in the modern world are, is causing the autoimmune and immune system problems so prevalent in today's society. I have today ordered a book called "An Epidemic of Absence: A New Way of Understanding Allergies and Autoimmune Diseases" which has what sounds like some interesting ideas including exposure to worms as a treatment for immune disorders. I cannot say that I would ever want hookworms in order to treat my immune system problems but it is going to be interesting reading the book after reading several similar books recently.

I came across something called libby chan which is an enzyme and probiotic cleaner which sounds interesting. Using probiotic bacteria on surfaces to control pathogenic ones rather than using anti bacterial products. I will have to look into it a bit more before trying it. I know that bacteria don't work that quickly so the enzymes must be doing most of the cleaning.

[Tim Hall]

I remember reading something about the doctor/scientist that intentionally gave himself hook worms for his immune system. Now if I can just convince the girlfriend my slovenliness is good for my health ;)

[bravebird]

After reading his again now i wonder about adding vinegar to soaking legumes. could it negatively impact the soaking environment for the beans/bacteria?

[Tim Hall]

Acidifying the water will inhibit some bacteria for sure...but maybe not to your benefit. Here's why: If were talking about the initial soak, prior to cooking, you might be better off just using plain water. By soaking the beans for several hours many dormant bacteria will come back to "life," at which point they become much more vulnerable to heat/cooking. An acidified environment could (this is all hypothetical) keep some of this bacteria dormant through all that, only to come back to life in a fermentation environment later on.

[WWFSM]

A lot of traditions around the world add an alkaloid (like baking soda, or lime, or other things) to the water when soaking dry beans (prior to cooking). My friends from the Middle East and South America do this. Someone once tried to explain to me why, but the language barrier got in the way, and I think it is either to lessen flatulence or to neutralize the anti-nutrients in the beans.

Further East, in Japan especially, they will often add seaweed (usually kombu/kelp) when soaking beans. There is a glutamate that is suppose to make the beans either cook easier, stay healthier in warm weather, or something to do with taste. It's also a common ingredient when fermenting beans, especially soybeans, in a home or farmhouse setting.

Old European household manuals often suggest deep well water for bean soaking, which will have a higher mineral content.

I don't know of any traditional diets that add acid for beans, usually the PH is encouraged to swing the other way.

Bravebird, from reading your posts, you might be ready to read a bit of Sally Fallon's book Nourishing Traditions. She is a huge advocate of adding live culture to otherwise 'dead' foods, which seems to be what is happening when you store your non-fermented foods in your fermenting containers. She goes a bit further than I would like, but there is some interesting and useful stuff in that book.