Air or seal top of jar?

[MissJames]

I am hearing conflicting reports about whether to seal the lid or just put a cloth over so air get in.

[Gutted]

You don't really want either! Sealing it will prevent air getting in, but it will also prevent fermentation gasses getting out, which could make it explode if the pressure becomes too much for the fermentation vessel! If air is allowed into the ferment, it affects your organisms. It's a good job I have a spell checker or that could easily of read very differently

Ideally it should be anaerobic ie without air.

Basically, if it isn't anaerobic it isn't an ideal environment for fermenting. These are a big read but should enlighten you.
http://www.intentionallydomestic.com/fermentation-controversy/
http://www.intentionallydomestic.com/but-i-thought-it-was-anaerobic-as-long-as-it-was-under-the-brine/
http://www.jlindquist.net/generalmicro/324sauerkraut.html
http://www.nourishingtreasures.com/index.php/2012/08/20/can-fido-jars-defy-science-can-they-provide-a-fail-safe-spoilage-free-ferment-with-no-brine-cover-find-out/

[MissJames]

thank you so much.

so what jar is best?

Is it ok not to let any air out? like this

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001B ... oodrene-20

but when you open it you the next month need to stand back?

Or should you try and put an airlock to let out pressure?

[Gutted]

thank you so much.

so what jar is best?

Is it ok not to let any air out? like this

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001B ... oodrene-20

but when you open it you the next month need to stand back?

Or should you try and put an airlock to let out pressure?

Some people, including myself on occasions, use the clip lock jars with sealing lid. They do eventually allow air out when the pressure builds up high and providing they are fairly strong and well built jars they should not explode. Something to keep the ferment submerged is required in those jars which can be difficult to find. I had to cut the sides off a small ceramic basin so I could use it in the top of one of those clip lock jars called kilner jar. For large jars I use a glass in the top of the jar to keep the ferment submerged with a cloth rapped around with an elastic band.

That jar does not look particularly strong but it could just look that way like the jar I have pictured on the manufacturers site. Therefore I do not know whether it could take the pressure build up before the sealing ring allows the pressure to escape. An airlock system would prevent any risk of explosion.

Alternatively, a fermentation crock is the safest way of doing it, particularly for larger batches.

I have one of these but it looks stronger than it does in this picture. They do make round jars which have straighter sides without the hip and they are easier to keep ferments submerged. There are larger versions of the straight sided jars 3 litre for straight and only 2 litre for the square jars.


Which is best is difficult to say. Open top jars with a glass in allows for trying the ferment but do not provide the best environment and will affect the bacteria. An airlock system would be best, it will allow you to see the state of the ferment so you know if there is any fungi or yeast forming which is something you never know with a fermentation crock. A clip lock jar is easier but there is a risk of explosion. Some people use buckets but again it does not provide the perfect environment due to it being aerobic.

For open top aerobic ferments it pays to do short ferments rather than longer ones because the longer it goes on the more air enters the ferment. Two weeks possibly three is about as long as it is best to leave it.

[WWFSM]

There are a lot of different opinions about air lock or leaving it open to the air. Both are correct and both can give excellent quality results.

After trying many different styles of airlocks and whatnots, I've come to the conclusion that I have the best success and the best tasting results with an open, exposed to the air, with a simple cloth on top ferment.

There is a huge and very vocal presence that advocates keeping all the oxygen out of ferments. I can see the benefit of this if we were starting with pasteurized ingredients and a specific starter culture. However, most home ferments aren't. There isn't enough evidence for me that we can a) benefit from having the excess of good organisms (our body can only use so much of anything before it becomes toxic), or b) the air loving invisible beasties aren't doing some good for us despite the trouble that they give us in decreasing shelf life.

Long ago, I wrote a rather long post about my view if you're interested in the pro-open vat side of things. Really quick summation - yes airlocks work, but the basic assumptions behind using them for every little ferment, aren't yet proven to be relevant or necessary. Also, not using airlocks work great for the everyman or everywoman. So when you are starting out, use what you have, and don't let all the information on how to do things the 'right way' intimidate you into not even trying. http://wholewheatfsm.blogspot.ca/2013/12/do-i-need-airlock-to-make-sauerkraut.html

We need to remember that people have been fermenting successfully for a few thousand years now, and the whole airlock idea is only about 200 years old, and not widely used until circa 1920s.

If you are fermenting for short term (ie, less than 4 months) or flavour then it doesn't make a lot of difference what container style you use. They all have their benefits and downsides. It's great to try whatever you can, then decide for yourself.

[Richard]

Hi Missjames,

I have been using a mixture of La Parfait and Weck jars. The both work as one way valves. They are designed for pressure canning, where contents are heated to about 125 C and produce a lot of steam; the lids and clips are designed to release that steam and then form an air tight seal; so a vacuum can form inside the jars as they cool which holds the lid on tight. (This can even happen with the change in temperature from summer to winter.) When they are used for fermentation it is carbon dioxide not steam that is released, and the clips (on Weck, or Fowler or similar jars) have to stay on to keep an air tight seal. La Parfait and Fido have integrated clips, they are on all the time. I fill the jars to the line (on La parfait) or to about 80% on Wecks.

Because all of the air in the jar is soon carbon dioxide you really do not have to use weights to submerge the contents. I have used these jars to ferment cauliflower, cabbage, button squash, zucchini, capsicum, chilli, eggplant, cucumbers, carrots, pomegranates, parsnip roots, lettuce, beets and turnips without weights or problems. The only thing that was a problem was paw paw juice (made with a blender) that I mixed with tibicos (water kefir) the fine particles formed a foam and I think that that was the problem, some time in the early morning I woke to a loud noise: the fermentation had blown the lid and its clips off. Nothing broke but there was a bit of mess. Oh I also over loaded some of the jars (about 90% full) when making 6 1 ltr jars of red sauerkraut and had red cabbage juice running across the counter after a few days.

I found the clips on the Wecks a little tricky at first, but the jars work much the same way as La Parfait so their is little save price to distinguish them. I would have been just as happy to use the Fidos, that seem to be more popular in the states, but I am in Australia and these were the cheapest options at the time.

I hope this helps.

[MissJames]

thanks all. I am thinking agreeing most with - "They all have their benefits and downsides"

I am now trying coffee jars with plastic lids that I melted a smallhole for a cheap airlock and glued round sealing it.

It seems to be working well for now been a couple of weeks. It lets air out but none in.

I used the big cabbage leaf stuffed in the top to keep it all under the brine, then screwed the top back on pushing it all down.

Is it correct if no air gets in then a bit of organic stuff out of water i sOK? Or should I use something non organic (Glass) or something to puch it all underwater?

[WWFSM]

Love your improvised airlock. Feel free to share a photo of your setup.

You will probably get mold if any organic stuff is on the surface, airlock or no airlock. Some of the mold is bad for you, some good for you, most just unsightly.

Generally mold is fine for you - not always but generally, so use your own judgement - most people remove the mold and eat the contents that were below the brine. But if you can get an inner lid and weight, I find the overall taste, texture and shelf life is much better.

The only time's I've gotten mold (and it wasn't included in the ingredients like koji) was when I use an airlock, so I tend to avoid them for vegi ferments. Great for sugary or yeast ferments though!

Personally I feel the airlock method is just a modified meem leftover from all the foodsafe stuff they teach in school. Yes, the airlock is great for cultured ferments and I'll use it for long term storage, but for everyday ferments at home, the need for it isn't proven. Yes, there is great science to say it makes more of certain bacteria, but how that interacts with out gut, and that we can't use the other kinds... or what ratios we can use or if it just replaces one imbalanced ecosystem with another... &c.. we are only just beginning to learn these things. Until we learn more, I'll stick with the way that worked so well for humanity over the last few thousand years: that is to let my ferments breath.

If you like an airlock, use an airlock. All the basic steps are the same, including keeping things submerged, only you add an airlock too it. But please don't feel you can't ferment without one. If you don't have one on hand, there are lots of other methods that work. Have a look at Katz's books (both Wild fermentation and the larger Art of Fermentation - which I found in the local library) for more info on the different kinds of fermentation vessels. I think he does the best job explaining the advantages and drawbacks of each one.

[Richard]

I don't worry about keeping everything submerged. I started out fermenting with open crocks, but then read this
http://www.nourishingtreasures.com/inde ... -find-out/

and I love this system. I find that as long as I have half a jar of kraut it seems to produce enough CO2 to keep the O2 out. With chillies and cucumbers the veges fall below the liquid as soon as I start eating them. I don't really know how I could keep eggplant under the liquid qithout a really heavy weight, it seemed to float above the brine for most of the time it was fermenting, only sinking after 4- 6 weeks.

I mentioned the problem with foaming paw paw, I think fennel might have a similar problem. I am now fermenting a lot of fennel: it was one dollar per bulb and the bulbs were huge say about 2 litres each; so I bought 16, ate two fresh and have pickled the rest in various combinations. Today a week later I decided to check and found that several of them were spurting juices as soon as I opened them. The lids on these jars are usually really good at releasing gas

http://www.nourishingtreasures.com/inde ... out-video/

but it turns out fennel, or at least these fennel ferments are slimy. The most active is a fennel and quince ferment, a slow-mo foaming gloop fountain. But it tastes wonderful, really bright and, well, not exactly like quince or fennel it has been transformed. I was even enjoying the chilli, garlic, red carrot, indian spices and fennel slime.

BTW I think that you DIY approach is great. I'm pretty useless in that reguard so it made sense form me to go for this commercial option, but its just one option of many.